1 00:00:05,870 --> 00:00:15,044 When we started out with the surveillance works, we wanted to talk about surveillance as a topic also. 2 00:00:15,044 --> 00:00:25,200 But at least since for, I would say, three or four years, surveillance has really become the backdrop for our lives. 3 00:00:25,200 --> 00:00:34,466 So, the camera systems are probably the least problematic of all the surveillance systems 4 00:00:34,466 --> 00:00:40,622 and the digital systems have become mass surveillance systems 5 00:00:40,622 --> 00:00:47,200 which are all connected and at the same time are completely invisible. 6 00:00:47,200 --> 00:00:56,133 So they're not, you can't target them like you can surveillance cameras in cityscapes. 7 00:00:56,133 --> 00:01:02,955 You can't avoid that type of surveillance. It's like completely different, 8 00:01:02,955 --> 00:01:10,200 but it also has to do with digital systems becoming all encompassing. 9 00:01:10,200 --> 00:01:21,488 So it's not two worlds. When people started using the internet there was this feeling of having two identities. 10 00:01:21,488 --> 00:01:26,400 I have an online identity and I am, offline I'm a different person. 11 00:01:26,400 --> 00:01:36,044 It also let people experiment with that, so you had people that would be a woman offline but pose as a man online and things like that. 12 00:01:36,044 --> 00:01:38,200 Or be a dog. Yes, whatever. 13 00:01:38,200 --> 00:01:43,266 But those times have gone, it's just totally intertwined. 14 00:01:43,955 --> 00:01:51,911 We are still trying to find the right images for it. With the security cameras, it was really accessible for us, 15 00:01:51,911 --> 00:01:56,688 because it would produce video, and this is something you can work with, everybody understands. 16 00:01:56,688 --> 00:02:03,355 And it's kind of hard now to produce video, the same consumable thing, 17 00:02:03,350 --> 00:02:09,177 if you speak about digital surveillance or mass surveillance, how does that works. 18 00:02:09,577 --> 00:02:19,288 So we take that as granted at the moment and try to work within that field and produce works 19 00:02:19,288 --> 00:02:23,111 which play with it without really addressing it. 20 00:02:23,111 --> 00:02:29,622 We are still finding a way, it's messy times. 21 00:02:29,620 --> 00:02:38,000 And I feel that we are losing control over things, we wanted to express that with the bot, 22 00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:40,933 that there is something which is out of our control. 23 00:02:42,622 --> 00:02:49,000 And with all the data which is being gathered, with all of the surveillance being applied on it, 24 00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:54,088 means that there is really much we can lose. 25 00:02:54,088 --> 00:03:04,200 Nobody is safe there, even the NSA is not safe of not having one guy taking everything and walking out. 26 00:03:04,800 --> 00:03:14,511 So, I ask myself, what does that mean for me, for the environment that I'm living in, everybody could come and just expose everything. 27 00:03:14,511 --> 00:03:21,955 This is something, somehow threatening to me, so this means that we have to change how we behave ourselves. 28 00:03:21,955 --> 00:03:27,733 What kind of information we want to have public and what data should be collected, 29 00:03:27,733 --> 00:03:30,444 or which data should be protected. 30 00:03:30,440 --> 00:03:40,022 It's kind of hard to work there but at the moment I think things are kind of breaking apart 31 00:03:40,020 --> 00:03:46,933 and it also gives you certain, how should I say Lichtblicker 32 00:03:47,066 --> 00:03:50,288 Insights or hopes. 33 00:03:50,288 --> 00:03:58,688 Like with Snowden we had somebody so we could learn what kind of a reality we are living in. 34 00:03:59,288 --> 00:04:08,866 I would actually say that any data collected, it's not important today by which entity that's done, 35 00:04:08,866 --> 00:04:16,422 because there is no entity which can collect data which can also guarantee the safety of the data. 36 00:04:16,422 --> 00:04:20,422 So, it's actually bullshit. 37 00:04:20,422 --> 00:04:27,666 You know this, "Oh but your data is safe with Google," because anyone at anytime with access, 38 00:04:27,666 --> 00:04:34,955 clearance can walk out of Google with a hard drive full of data and sell it to whoever, put it online. 39 00:04:34,955 --> 00:04:39,511 I think that soon enough that discussion will sort of shift. 40 00:04:39,511 --> 00:04:46,488 I think we will have to begin building systems where there is no data collection. 41 00:04:46,488 --> 00:04:48,866 Like no data collection. 42 00:04:48,866 --> 00:04:53,955 That means totally different hierarchies also for certain systems. 43 00:04:53,955 --> 00:05:00,911 And it means there will be stuff you can't do with those systems. But it's the only way. 44 00:05:00,911 --> 00:05:07,977 Because the NSA is not capable of keeping their data safe, that means that nobody else is either. 45 00:05:07,977 --> 00:05:20,600 So you know, full-stop. I think what people don't understand about data collecting is that it's not a real time process. 46 00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:32,022 It's something that will come back on us in the future, and that is something that we often find is not really talked about. 47 00:05:32,066 --> 00:05:44,200 And I think people are often not aware that this identity, it's actually a very full and rich identity that they produce everyday, in real time. 48 00:05:44,200 --> 00:05:55,244 But it's also recorded for the future, forever. And that's really worrying but at the same time, yeah, it's our reality. 49 00:05:55,244 --> 00:06:01,155 But it's also the reason why we started to look at the deep webs and the Tor networks 50 00:06:01,155 --> 00:06:12,066 because architecturally you have an internet there that is encrypted, and it's encrypted by default, 51 00:06:12,066 --> 00:06:21,444 not by decision which makes it a very interesting concept, for me, for the future of the internet. 52 00:06:21,444 --> 00:06:31,533 It's frustrating to see people use social media and not understand that everything they do, they say, is public there. 53 00:06:32,377 --> 00:06:41,355 But I think the problem is a lot larger and it really involves everything, all the systems we use. 54 00:06:42,288 --> 00:06:48,955 I remember this work by an artist, or maybe it was just something he said in an interview, 55 00:06:48,955 --> 00:06:51,733 I can't even remember who it was, but it sort of stuck. 56 00:06:51,733 --> 00:06:59,133 This sort of saying, you know, "I don't use Gmail because I think it's not good to use Gmail, 57 00:06:59,133 --> 00:07:08,088 but then when I look at my emails 60% of my communication is with people who do use Gmail, 58 00:07:08,080 --> 00:07:13,288 which means that I can have my own server, use my own email address, 59 00:07:13,280 --> 00:07:19,733 but 60% of my communications are stored within Google systems still." 60 00:07:19,755 --> 00:07:24,911 Even though I don't like it. And you can't stop communicating with people. 61 00:07:24,911 --> 00:07:29,177 I mean it's just too messy as Doma said, "It's just really messy."